A Baptist reflects on the "One True Church''
Pope Benedict recently took the opportunity to remind Christians everywhere that the Catholic Church is the big enchilada of Christendom. In fact, the rest of us aren't even little enchiladas, not churches at all but rather "ecclesial communities.'' We're a side of nachos. At least we still have a shot at heaven, except without all the bells and whistles.
There is nothing new here and nothing to be alarmed about. This has been Catholic doctrine for a long time. It's not such a big deal.
And if we Protestants thought that the Catholic Church was the one true church, we wouldn't have followed Martin Luther out the door in the first place.
But we're all brothers and sisters in Christ.
What worries me is the continuing existence of a small, but ugly strain of rabid Protestant evangelicalism that does not even consider Catholism "Christian'' at all. Anybody who has seen Jack Chick tracts knows what I'm talking about. Some of these nutbars consider certain scary images in the book of Revelation to refer specifically to the Catholic Church.
It's a bunch of nonsense, of course, but I've run into people who buy it hook, line and incense.
The breadth of orthodox Christian theology means that ecumenism is possible, but we're never all gonna sing "Kum-by-ya'' in one universal church, or Church.
But the friction between competing views of Christ's kingdom keeps us sharp, and insights can come from those sparks, sparks that can light everyone's way in the darkness.
There is nothing new here and nothing to be alarmed about. This has been Catholic doctrine for a long time. It's not such a big deal.
And if we Protestants thought that the Catholic Church was the one true church, we wouldn't have followed Martin Luther out the door in the first place.
But we're all brothers and sisters in Christ.
What worries me is the continuing existence of a small, but ugly strain of rabid Protestant evangelicalism that does not even consider Catholism "Christian'' at all. Anybody who has seen Jack Chick tracts knows what I'm talking about. Some of these nutbars consider certain scary images in the book of Revelation to refer specifically to the Catholic Church.
It's a bunch of nonsense, of course, but I've run into people who buy it hook, line and incense.
The breadth of orthodox Christian theology means that ecumenism is possible, but we're never all gonna sing "Kum-by-ya'' in one universal church, or Church.
But the friction between competing views of Christ's kingdom keeps us sharp, and insights can come from those sparks, sparks that can light everyone's way in the darkness.
posted by Michael Riley at 8:40 AM
77 Comments:
Ironically, one of the few things the Roman Catholic Church will allow its members to do is sing "Kum-by-ya" with Protestants (silly term, that). I share your frustration with the Roman bishop's recent pronouncements, but I don't regard them as insuperable barriers. Let's keep reaching out, even if we get our fingers slapped now and then.
There is this song, called "one in the Spirit" from my childhood...in it the verse says..."and we pray that our unity may one day be restored".
Never say never.
Margaret
"Pope Benedict recently took the opportunity to remind Christians everywhere that the Catholic Church is the big enchilada of Christendom. In fact, the rest of us aren't even little enchiladas, not churches at all but rather 'ecclesial communities.'" -- Reverend Riley
And what a great Pope we have!
In all fairness to The Holy Father, and while the Supreme Pontiff did approve and order the publication of the document to which you, Reverend Riley, now refer; for the sake of accuracy if nothing else, the actual document itself was authored by His Eminence, William Cardinal Levada, an American and the Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
For those so interested, a copy of the actual document itself can be found here:
RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS
OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH
another thing the Catholic Church allows, is its priests, bishops, clergy to to molest young boys for centuries upon centuries and have the b@#lls to collect monies from its parisioners to pay the billions in legal funds and settlements for those sins..the ultimate hypocrisy..who's Christian-like now?
That is something "allowed", as you say, by other clergy - ministers, rabbis, and while we're at it, those in positions of authority, like policemen, judges, et al. Molestation of the young knows no boundaries in terms of who does the molesting...and this has been so for centuries upon centuries.
yeah but is a huge percentage in Catholic Church and ultimate in religious hypocrisy..it's their profession to be moral leaders, unlike most professions..
Has anyone else noticed a relationship between claims of moral leadership on the one hand, and the tendency to live a private life 180° opposed to those claims?
I'm thinking of the Catholic church and the Republican party.
We should pray for all the victims of sexual abuse, including those who have suffered at the hands of the Protestant clergy:
Ex-Sutton pastor charged with rape of girl from church
Church Worker, Coach Enters Plea In Sex Abuse Case
Ex-teacher guilty of molest charges
14-year sentence in Milpitas case
Ex-church elder linked to molest
Minister charged with child rape
Jehovah's Witnesses member accused of 1970s sex assaults
2 Pastors Charged with Abuse
Youth pastor charged with criminal sexual conduct with a minor
Teen, pastor in court on sex crimes
Youth Minister Sentenced To Jail For Abusing Young Boys
Teen accuses pastor of sexual molestation
Man guilty of bigamy, molestation, spouse abuse
Women say church silenced abuse
Minister sought on child-sex counts
STATE OF OHIO VS. TIMOTHY L. COOK
FBI: Kids from 4 to 18 abused in sect
Jehovah's Witnesses expel parents of alleged abuse victim
Local Minister Arrested for Sex Abuse
Sisters, in 40s, accuse father of childhood rapes
Congregation in Othello sued in sex abuse case
Artist given 5-year term
Former pastor sentenced for sex with stepdaughter
Molestation charges shock Miss. town
Youth minister charged with lewd conduct
Ex-music pastor withdraws molestation guilty plea
Sex Offender Arrested for Child Molestation:
Additional Victims Sought
Judge orders Mormons to provide sex-abuse records
Former soccer coach-youth pastor pleads innocent to molestation charge
Buford couple charged with child molestation
Ex-Pasco pastor pleads guilty to child molestation
Southern Baptist Coverup
Witnesses say pastor cited in sex crimes
The Corrupt Leaders of the
Worldwide Church of God
So police and judges are not moral leaders in the community? What are they then?
Margaret
Hey pat/paps, why don't you list your blue links to articles for all the Catholic clergy abuses? Oh, I know why..it'd take... forever. Do you have a catalog of those offenses?
Ray..."as if" Democrats and other parties are beyond reproach.
But you are right about something. Those who "claim" pompously and authoritatively to be something they're not are hypocrites (at the very least).
M
dg, you're right..it would take a long time for pat to list all the abuses by clergy. Had they been immediately excommunicated and incarcerated at the time of the abuse, perhaps things would not have escalated to the point they did.
The 60s, 70s and even 80s, though those years seemed so open and free for most of society, it wasn't that way for Catholicism, even with Vatican II changes. Turning a blind eye and moving pedophile clergy around to other parishes are clearly egregious, sinful (if you will) offenses against children, and the fact that the offenders were quietly moved, without thought to how they would behave in another parish is beyond me.
I am ashamed of what happened. I so want to defend my faith here, because it pains me to hear the derision in the blog remarks.I am moreso saddened because those abused kids could have been friends I went to school with...my own kids, just about anyone who placed their trust in these priests/nuns, etc.
These children were innocents, and I bet a number of them left the faith because of what happened. The authority figures in their lives, including their own parents,failed them.
I was never abused, and I was always around those who took religious vows. They (thankfully) were good people.
That was the way of things (complete trust in the priest) years ago.
Catholicism is not about abuse, though many would think that based on the explosion of reports.
The One true Church is not without human blunderings. Peter, the rock on which this church was built was a very flawed person,with a great love for Christ.
I love this faith. I abhor what was done to children at the hands of evil people, priests or not. No amount of money or media attention brought to the guilty parties will lessen the pain of the victims.
This is really long but I am imperfectly trying to say I agree with you dg. How sad to say I agree.
M
sadly, it's not in the past..still happening and cover-ups still happening I am sure...
"yeah but is a huge percentage in Catholic Church ..." -- Anonymous @ 6:18 PM on July 18, 2007
"In the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent."
Source: Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests (New York: Oxford University Press), pp. 50 and 81.
"Hey pat/paps, why don't you list your blue links to articles for all the Catholic clergy abuses? Oh, I know why..it'd take... forever." -- DG
"In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources. The conclusion: 'Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.'”
Source: Mark Clayton, “Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches,” Christian Science Monitor, April 5, 2002, p. 1.
"That is something "allowed", as you say, by other clergy - ministers, rabbis, and while we're at it, those in positions of authority, like policemen, judges, et al. Molestation of the young knows no boundaries in terms of who does the molesting...and this has been so for centuries upon centuries." -- Anonymous at 6:31 PM, July 17, 2007
Well said, Anonymous. A child is far, far more likely to be sexually abused by a family friend or in a public school than that child is to be abused by a clergy member or in a church setting. To wit:
"In 2001, clinical child psychologist Wade F. Horn reported on the work of researchers at Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health. The researchers found that nearly 20 percent of low-income women, recruited through family planning, obstetrical or gynecological clinics, had experienced child sexual abuse.
"Horn summarized the researchers’ findings on poor women as follows: “Family friends and acquaintances compose the largest group of perpetrators (28 percent), followed by such relatives as uncles and cousins (18 percent), stepfathers (12 percent), male siblings (10 percent), biological fathers (10 percent), boyfriends of the child’s mother (9 percent), grandfathers and stepgrandfathers (7 percent), and strangers (4 percent).” Horn was struck by the fact that 10 percent were biological fathers and only 4 percent were strangers. 'Which means,' he said, '86 percent of the perpetrators were known to the family, but were someone other than the child’s father.'”
Source: Wade F. Horn, “Common-sense article about abuse,” Washington Times, February 6, 2001, p. E1
"It was reported in 1991 that 17.7 percent of males who graduated from high school, and 82.2 percent of females, reported sexual harassment by faculty or staff during their years in school. Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher."
Source: Daniel Wishnietsky, “Reported and Unreported Teacher-Student Sexual Harassment,” Journal of Ed Research, Vol. 3, 1991, pp. 164-69.
Some other interesting findings regarding the Protestant clergy and/or those in their employ:
"In a 1984 survey, 38.6 percent of ministers reported sexual contact with a church member, and 76 percent knew of another minister who had had sexual intercourse with a parishioner."
Source: Dale Neal, “Methodist Clergy Instructed in Sexual Ethics at Conference,” Asheville Citizen-Times, May 14, 2002, p. 1B.
"In the same year [1984], a Fuller Seminary survey of 1,200 ministers found that 20 percent of theologically 'conservative' pastors admitted to some sexual contact outside of marriage with a church member. The figure jumped to over 40 percent for 'moderates'; 50 percent of 'liberal' pastors confessed to similar behavior."
Source: Cal Thomas, “Their Sins only Start with Abuse,” Baltimore Sun, June 19, 2002, p. 9A
"In 1990, in a study by the Park Ridge Center for the Study of Health, Faith and Ethics in Chicago, it was learned that 10 percent of ministers said they had had an affair with a parishioner and about 25 percent admitted some sexual contact with a parishioner."
Source: James L. Franklin, “Sexual Misconduct Seen as a Serious Problem in Religion,” Boston Globe, October 23, 1991, p. 24
"In a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care, 14 percent of Southern Baptist ministers said they had engaged in 'inappropriate sexual behavior,' and 70 percent said they knew a minister who had had such contact with a parishioner."
Source: Teresa Watanabe, “Sex Abuse by Clerics—A Crisis of Many Faiths,” Los Angeles Times, March 25, 2002, p. A1
SEXUAL ABUSE IN SOCIAL CONTEXT:
CATHOLIC CLERGY AND OTHER PROFESSIONALS
"sadly, it's not in the past..still happening and cover-ups still happening I am sure..." -- DG
Then why aren't you on the phone dialing 911 instead of writing about abuse that you are "sure" of? Is it perhaps because you far are more interested in criticizing the Catholic Church than you are in protecting children from abuse?
What does it say about a person who keeps links relating to child abuse by Protestant clergy on his hard drive?... Especially when that person complains about attacks on his own church.
I find it interesting that Spooky presents us with his, "But they do it, too!" defense. As if that amounts to a defense of Catholic priests.
I also find it interesting that the church that "Jesus created" (according to Spooky) has such a problem with pedophilia. If anything, the argument that Jesus created the Catholic church should impose a higher standard, not one that can be dismissed by referring to others in the same position.
Third, given that priests are supposed to be celibant, their transgressions are even more absurd.
Margaret wrote:
"..."as if" Democrats and other parties are beyond reproach."
I'm not a Democrat - I'm quite indepedent. I'd have though that would be obvious by now!
And again, you're doing the same thing Spooky is doing. That is, pointing the finger at someone else in defense of your own. As I always keep harping about, those who proclaim to be the moralists among us (i.e the Republicans) should be held to a higher standard, rather than lowering the bar to the level of those you see as less than moral.
Ray, it does annoy me that you specifically pick out Catholics and Republicans (moral leadership...private life 180), and I said Dems and other parties.
Ray, I NEVER said I thought you were a democrat. You're tasking this personally and it is not my intent to make it so.
I said dems and other parties.
It is so easy to latch on to a few words that another says and reply.
I am in no way pointing the finger at one group to make my group (as you say) look better.
But your statement did demand a response, because it was only partially correct.
Margaret
Ray, moralists among us are all of us here.
See, sometimes you confuse me because you say that Pat and me (maybe others too) can only see the world through our Christian/Republican colored glasses, but you do/say what you accuse us of, from your vantage point. And it's quite blatant.
"Those you see as less moral"...come on, it's the pot calling the kettle black here.
M
dg, in regard to cover ups still happening, there has been huge changes as to how pedophile priests are being handled.
In the stage where a person is in the seminary, there is great scrutiny and tests to ascertain if the person who wishes to be a priest has the proclivities toward pedophilia, or psychological disturbances. Seminary is a long process. This has nothing to do with whether one is homosexual or heterosexual, from what I have heard.
Also, the priests who commit any crime, whether it is stealing from the parish coffers or pedophilia, they are incarcerated. There is no protecting the priest even when he's committed a crime.
Things are in place...they may not be perfect, but the scourge of rampant ignorance and sweeping the abuses under the rug cannot happen again to our children. And steps, while a long time coming, have been put in place.
M
the Catholic clergy did not report (they covered -up) most abuses whereas the Protestants reported theirs more willingly..your figures are probably way off re: Catholic abuses.. God only knows the true numbers...and I am sure fewer number of victims per priest in Protestant cases whereas more victims over many years or multiple, long-term assaults on same kids by your predatory papal-loving hypocritical priests/bishops. Do more research paps and give us unbiased links to the total number of victims over the past 100 years (and more),how many assaults per victim and how many priests total..of course, this is only reported cases..numbers much, much higher I am sure...and believe me, I would be first to call 911 if child suspected of abuse..in fact, I reported anonymously 20 years ago my niece's bruises from a nun because my s-in-law was in denial that a Catholic nun would hurt her..helllooo, how about all the corporal punishment (most unwelcomed by parents) inflicted by your lovely "Sisters" over the decades in the name of God...the spare the rod crap..Gee, I don't see half billion dollar lawsuits in hush money being doled out by protestants to its victims do you? How do you feel donating each week to the "Catholic Predator/pedophile defense fund " envelope and seeing your parochial schools closing due to lack of funding? go ahead, cite a link justifying that nonsense pat/paps...
ray, your stats tell of protestant clergy having sexual affairs and inercourse with parishioners and out of marriage, etc..this is much different than a Catholic priest/bishop sexually assaulting a 10 year old choir boy...and his brother..and his cousin..again and again year after year and then relocated quietly to another parish by his superiors to hush it up and never receiving one day in jail but having it all somehow be okayed if he "prays and seeks repentance for his by going to Confession"...that's what makes most normal Americans so incensed about the hypocrisy of your church..still, where are your blue links listed for Catholic specific abuses..you are so into reasearch and obviously have lots of time on your hands, so..please share..start googling and warm-up those typing fingers..will take a LONG time to assemble all the Catholic clergy abuses articles out there...and don't deflect it back to me and tell me to research it, because I really do not have the time...go ahead..start googling or even easier go to mass sunday and do an informal poll of all generations and see how many 'fess up to their own stories of personal or familial abuses..and report back to us...
I am so sorry ray, I just realized I addressed my last entry to you..of course I meant pat/paps..I apologize for even placing your name in same sentence as that nutbag...
Dg, how do you know that Protestant clerics reported more willingly? Is there a statistic somehwere? I'll google, but since you made the statement, I thought you must have the proof handy.
Margaret
"What does it say about a person who keeps links relating to child abuse by Protestant clergy on his hard drive?" -- Ray
My hard drive wasn't involved at all, Ray. I just spent a few minutes copying & pasting. When you sign up for that basic logic course at Brookdale, you might want to add Computers 101 as well.
"I find it interesting that Spooky presents us with his, "But they do it, too!" defense. As if that amounts to a defense of Catholic priests." -- Ad Hominem Ray
I didn't "defend" anyone, much less someone that has sexually abused another. I put the sexual abuse scandal in context by pointing out that one is less likely to be sexually abused by Catholic clergy than by Protestant clergy. Moreover, a child is far more likely to be sexually abused by a family friend, a relative or even a member of the teacher's union than they are to be abused in a church setting, regardless of the denomination.
"If anything, the argument that Jesus created the Catholic church should impose a higher standard ..." -- Ad Hominem Ray
I imagine that it is just a coincidence that those to whom you, Ray, apply a higher standard just happen to be those with whom you are ideologically at odds with at any given moment. (e.g., Catholics but not Protestants, Republicans but not Democrats, conservative clergy members but not liberal clergy members, etc.)
Funny how that works out, isn't it?
"Third, given that priests are supposed to be celibant [sic], their transgressions are even more absurd." -- Ad Hominem Ray
More absurd than what? A married minister molesting a child? I imagine it makes precious little difference to a victim whether their attacker broke his vows of celibacy as opposed to breaking his marriage vows.
"Dg, how do you know that Protestant clerics reported more willingly? Is there a statistic somehwere? I'll google, but since you made the statement, I thought you must have the proof handy." -- Margaret
DG has no basis to make that claim, Margaret. You'll just have to rest assured that DG is "sure" in her beliefs, even if she requires someone else to substantiate those beliefs by doing the research for her.
still don't see the blue links pat to Catholic abuses..copy & paste away...I don't have time..I have a real life to live...when you do get to them all, you will break this blog record because they'll fill many pages..you delayed my request again..you are Catholic church expert so you should have no problem finding them all..no, I have no stats that's why I ask pat to provide them so we can honestly weigh all info
DG, I don't have time today to pick up my dry cleaning or to change the oil in my car. "I have a real life to live," after all. That being the case, how come you haven't done those chores for me?
because pat, I confess I am not am expert as you are in locating such articles; I defer to your obvious expertise in this field (sexual abuses by clergy) and once again you are using stall tactics to avoid my request for you to be fair and balanced in your "copy and paste" crusade against Protestants by providing all the articles of Catholic abuses and then you can gloat and prove me wrong about your Catholic clergy...who are you kidding/ you have time; look at your lengthy research and links on almost every blog by Riley and other blogsites as well..it's second-nature to you, so please provide us with the info to show all sides...no more delay tactics please..the more you protest, the more I am convinced you are simply trying to hide the real facts about Catholic clergy abuse cases..
I'll give you a head start pat ( and fellow bloggers, please go to : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases and link to John Jay Report which refutes pat's prev. claims that according to "Pedophiles and Priests" "authoritative work" .2 to 1.7% of Catholic priests and 2 to 3 % of Protestant clergy are pedophiles. The John Jay report found accusations against 4,392 priests in US alone (not even counting foreign countries), about 4% of all priests..so that's higher than pat's claims of 2-3% of Protestant clergy. Also view the Ferns Report link regarding how high ranking clergy have historically covered-up Catholic clergy abuses. There are lots of links and even specifies individual better-known cases in US and overseas so may take a while and this is just one place I found this info..are hundreds of others to google but this is a good start...copy and paste away pat and add this info to your anti-Protestant files to be fair and balanced in your reporting...
the correct link is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases I mistyped info last entry..
But Dg, you said that Protestant clergy reported abuses more willingly. How do you know this? That was your statement and your link is not backing that up in any way.
Wikipideia, while informative, is not based on any empirical evidence which is usually found in journals, not newspaper articles, most websites and/or magazines and the like, because that stuff is usually quite slanted, BTW.
Margaret
Not trying to be a "buster", but this is a volatile argument, and much misinformation can be angrily thrown about, and simply accepted as true by others when it's simply not.
M
I admitted Ii did not know that stat..I was speculating because i honestly did not know..and I gave this link info as a start for pat re: Catholic abuses links which he has repeatedly refused to furnish..who says his links are credible? Look up those 2 reports I cited somewhere else then besides wikipedia and see what they say..pat's info is sketchy and just because he cites links, does not necessarily mean they are true or not skewed either..be fair..pat's MO is to lay down "facts" and links as if it is always true so i am just challenging him to be honest and give us the other side as far as Catholic abuses links, etc to make a point of his narrow-mindedness when it comes to anything Catholic...if the Catholic church does something wrong, state the facts and own up to it - don't keep denying like the priests, clergy have done for thousands of years...
Dg, I am sorry that your niece was abused. I had said in a previous post that I had never abused by those who took religious vows, but after your post about your niece...
In the 70s teachers were allowed to hit children (private and public schools). And there were two nuns who did hit me. Not just me (I was quiet but that did not deter these two teachers/nuns).
Now, I did not come home with bruises, but I knew of childen who did.
The world's view on punitive measures toward children in the classroom were different during my childhood, and before. When I look back, I remember the fear and the hurt, especially the one nun who taught me math for 4 years. Every day was a nightmare, not knowing what to expect from her moods, and who she would go after next for seemingly the slightest offense.To this day, I am not good in math, though I am a good student. I freeze up. A scar, if you will, on my psyche. A small one at that, but I know it's there.
I am Catholic, and you might find my religion weird. Maybe you find it weird that after these offenses against myself, and the priest pedophilia scandal, that I would stay Catholic.
I am just as horrified and angry about the Catholic Churches' past, and how they handled things. Children suffered greatly at the hands of authority figures we loved (we did).
But this is not about the people, DG. This faith is faith. It's not blind. It's love for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It goes beyond the wrongdoings of people who represent the faith. Because people are human beings. I will not let a human being deter me from my faith and love for God. Not going to happen.
Perhaps I am speaking for other who feel the same, I don't know.
M
I went to public schools in 1961-1974 and was never hit or tapped, slapped or subject to any form of physical punishment from teachers or coaches ..sorry you were a victim of that abuse at hands of "God's" moral leaders and teachers in your parochial, Catholic schools.
I have decided to no longer blog in this site because I am , quite frankly, bored with pat/papinian's
lengthy, one-sided manifestos this past year (as well as on other sites) and I only gave my lengthy rebuttals recently mostly out of frustration with this guy's continual rubbish. I enjoy Mr. Riley's column and this blog and will continue to read both, but will no longer reply because pat/paps even manages to spoil most of the light-hearted blogs by somehow interjecting his bizarre links and personal manifesto. Would still like him to provide all those Catholic abuse links I've asked him to deliver to everyone else for a fair and balanced analysis, but I doubt he will..because, quelle surprise...he is neither a fair nor balanced person..that's right, pat/paps is obviously unfair and definitelt unbalanced. I will miss fellow bloggers Margaret and Ray's inciteful comments, often clever and funny..regardless if I agreed with you or not, your arguments were thought-provoking,often clever and sometimes convincing... you never went into the "spooky, creepy" area that pat/paps did/continues to do...ciao all
sorry for the Freudian slip..I meant insightful,not "inciteful"..guess I was still thinking of pat/paps..
Will miss your insights. Sorry to hear you're going. Can alway come back with a different name and no one would know.
M
You know what? I was just going over the statements here, and um, the first one (yup, let's go back to that one)...the Kum-by-ya one??
Catholics and Protestants do a lot together (not just sing Kum-By-Ya)! One thing in my community is Interfaith. Has anyone heard of that? In our area I think 61 churches and synagogues (et. al.) particpate in Interfaith, in which many faiths come together and help out the community, especially the aged, homebound, and those suffering from Alzheimers and other things.
I as a Catholic can be a part of a Protestant church service, but if there is a communion involved, I believe I would not participate. From what I understand, the reason is because Catholics believe in Transubstantiation - that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ.
I am not a learned scholar of Protestant faiths...I was told that this is one of those things in which Catholics and Protestants differ.
We do a lot more together than one would suppose. Perhaps it's just not talked about...and it should be.
Margaret
Spooky wrote:
"My hard drive wasn't involved at all, Ray. I just spent a few minutes copying & pasting. When you sign up for that basic logic course at Brookdale, you might want to add Computers 101 as well."
Hey Spooky, try that logic course yourself and maybe you'll see the non sequitur in the above quote. Specifically, your denial of having that stuff on your hard drive doesn't indicate my not knowing anything about computers.
Spooky wrote:
"I didn't "defend" anyone, much less someone that has sexually abused another. I put the sexual abuse scandal in context by pointing out that one is less likely to be sexually abused by Catholic clergy than by Protestant clergy."
With the way you go on about the Catholic church? Doing this serves no other function than to deflect criticism.
"I imagine that it is just a coincidence that those to whom you, Ray, apply a higher standard just happen to be those with whom you are ideologically at odds with at any given moment. (e.g., Catholics but not Protestants, Republicans but not Democrats, conservative clergy members but not liberal clergy members, etc.)"
The issue, Spooks, is hypocrisy. With all of the moralizing coming from the conservatives it bears pointing out the fact that they don't live up to the demands they make of others. And don't for a moment think that I'm defending Protestants over Catholics. Have you not been paying attention?
"The issue, Spooks, is hypocrisy. With all of the moralizing coming from the conservatives it bears pointing out the fact that they don't live up to the demands they make of others." -- Ad Hominem Ray
And the Left in this country never lays claim to the moral high ground? I am reminded of my 12 year-old nieces favorite expression of late: PUH-LEEZE!
what about your 12 yr old nephew..puh-leez don't touch me Father Molester...
You know, it is beyond me how some people can say "you only see things through your belief system and that's close-minded" yet those very same folks are out there basically intent on labeling all priests as molesters.
It's one thing to be justifiably angry about those who DID molest...it's entirely another to say all priests molest all the time.
I know some incredible humble faith-filled men who are priests. They are not sanctimonious windbags as some bloggers here might think. They are good people.
They do what they are supposed to do, and they are hard working individuals...in my own community I see these men up and down one of the major roads here tending to the needs of the homebound, the bereaved, the sickly. They do so much good.
I am NOT saying "let's forget what some poor excuses for Catholic priests did to children." I will never forget, and those who were abused will never forget. The Catholic church whill never forget; make NO mistake about that.
I am saying the Catholic priest bashing is wrong. You simply don't know what you're talking about. And taunting those of this particular faith with the wrongdoings of those said priests is nothing short of sadistic mockery.
M
Well said, Margaret!
Five years ago, and at the height of the sex abuse scandal, Father Roger Landry wrote an article for Catholic Answers in which he raised many of the same issues that you just did in your post(s) above. In my mind, Father Landry's article, A Crisis of Saints, well articulates the thoughts and feelings of all too many Catholics with respect to this recent sex abuse scandal that has rocked our Church. I trust that you will enjoy reading Father Landry's words as much as I enjoyed reading what you have written above. Again, thanks.
"what about your 12 yr old nephew..puh-leez don't touch me Father Molester..." -- Anonymous @ 8:16AM on July 25, 2007
For the sake of the victims, I almost wish that sex abuse, particularly sex abuse involving innocent children, was limited only to the Catholic Church -- and I say that as a proud Catholic. If that were the case, there would be far less victims. Sadly, that is not the case. As was pointed out above, pedophilia and the molestation of children is, regrettably, worse in Protestant churches than it is in the church that Christ founded, the Catholic Church. To wit:
Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches
Protestant sex abuse figures released
Sexual Abuse of Minors in Protestant Churches
'20/20' investigates sexual abuse in SBC, other Protestant bodies
Abuse in Protestant Churches at Least as Bad as in Catholic Churches?
StopBaptistPredatros.org
Typo ... I meant StopBaptistPredators.org
Where's the stopcatholicpredators website(s).?
"[T]hat's what makes most normal Americans so incensed about the hypocrisy of your church[.]" -- DG @ 1:05 PM on July 20, 2007 on this thread
"Normal Americans," huh? And by "normal" are you referring to only those Americans that are White, Anglo-Saxon and Protestant?
DG, aren't you running late for a Klu Klux Klan meeting, a cross burning or something along those lines?
"Where's the stopcatholicpredators website(s).?" -- Anonymous (yeah, right) @ 12:53 PM on July 25, 2007 on this thread
I imagine there is nothing at all, save your considerable shortcomings, that would prevent you from starting precisely such a web site.
"I trust that you will enjoy Father Landry's words..." - Pat
Pat, this has nothing to do with enjoyment for me. I did click the article but could not access it.
Writing those words were not enjoyable, and though you appreciated them, they were difficult to write.
For me, this is not about "showing up" another's faith, making them see that people of other faiths are just as guilty - so NOT the issue.
That can be (perhaps) an understandable response given the sophomoric taunts here, but I can't buy into it.
This strand began because Mr. Riley made comment about unity, and the Catholic Church, and Pope Benedict's comments...clearly there is much divisiveness still because of this mess of a scandal within the one true church.
I am still optimistic that unity can happen. It will take much more intense communication, healing and prayer than has been happening so far.
Margaret
"This strand began because Mr. Riley made comment about unity, and the Catholic Church, and Pope Benedict's comments...clearly there is much divisiveness still because of this mess of a scandal within the one true church." -- Margaret
Even more than the sex scandal, much of the divisiveness to which you speak, Margaret, springs from both the latent and not-so-latent anti-Catholic bigotry that is all too evident in this country. Indeed, we have seen as much on this blog site.
Whether it involves DG's trite, old canards about Catholics being something less than "normal Americans," or whether it involves Reverend Riley mocking Catholic devotions (See Rev. Riley's March 16, 2006 blog, "Divine Intervention In The Real Estate Market?), the fact remains that much of what divides us goes well beyond the sex abuse scandal to which you have made reference.
yawn...wawawa..
Margaret wrote:
"You know, it is beyond me how some people can say "you only see things through your belief system and that's close-minded" yet those very same folks are out there basically intent on labeling all priests as molesters."
And who said that all priests are molesters? Oh, that's right, your religion is under attack. I almost forgot about the conspiracy that I'm a part of.
Spooky wrote:
"And the Left in this country never lays claim to the moral high ground? I am reminded of my 12 year-old nieces favorite expression of late: PUH-LEEZE!"
But everyone knows that the Religious Reich is God's people. I think it says so in the Bible somewhere. Maybe if you read it backwards?
Spooky wrote:
"...much of the divisiveness to which you speak, Margaret, springs from both the latent and not-so-latent anti-Catholic bigotry that is all too evident in this country. Indeed, we have seen as much on this blog site."
Right on schedule and as predicted.
Spooky wrote:
"DG, aren't you running late for a Klu Klux Klan meeting, a cross burning or something along those lines?"
Why? Were you expecting her?
Ray, as far as I could tell, you were not one of the folks who were saying anti-priest things...unless you were posting anonymously, and THAT doesn't seem to be your style.
:)
Secondly, faith is under attack. Catholicism in specific and faith in general, like never before, in my opinion. And it is my opinion. I have a right to voice it, and so I am. Your opinion is dually noted.
Also, I did not say "conspiracy". Conspiracy intimates a plotting of something, in agreement with others, and it is rare that folks here agree on anything, save, to disagree.
Margaret wrote:
"Secondly, faith is under attack. Catholicism in specific and faith in general, like never before, in my opinion."
The only thing that's different is that people are more able to use their right to free speech than ever before. For example, in the "Golden Era" of the 1950s that people like Ronald Reagan pined for, atheists, gays and political dissidents were persecuted if not prosecuted for their way of thinking. That the climate for free speech is better than it has ever been is a good thing. But when free speech is abundant not everybody tells you how much they like you. So what you see as an attack is what I see as a much healthier environment for free speech. And we rather enjoy it, even if you don't like everything you hear about Catholics in specific or Christianity in general.
Now there's a thought. Healthier environment, Hmmm. It sounds interesting. It sounds like a strong argument.
Yet I can't help but notice changes that are in this world... we have started to become quite a lawless society.
In New Jersey alone, the corruption in politics and business is unbelievable and unprecedented. That's only the state level. Don't even go to what is going on in our country.
Parents are either ignoring children or putting them in situations that are absolutely intolerable, and these kids are going to school with incredible chips on their shoulders. Some bully. Some go to terrible extremes. Their parents haven't taught them much in the way of coping skills. They feel the world should give them everything.
The foul language and onslaught of sexualized and violent television shows and movies just gets worse and worse. What's the point of censors. Are there any left that actually censor? And, is censoring now a bad word?
The freedom you speak of is not freedom at all. It's license. License to do and say whatever one feels. And it's facilitating all kinds of problems we could not have imagined in society. Confusion begets more confusion now...not a good thing.
When judges let rapists go, and child trafficking and porn are argued to be freedoms, we're all in big trouble...oh yeah, that's actually happening NOW.
And so, healthier environment? Very debatable.
An even exchange of ideas is healthy. Mockery of faith is not.
Yes, people can abuse their freedoms but I'll take abused freedoms over no freedoms any day. I'm much happier living in a country -- and a time -- where freedoms are there and can be abused. Of course, not everyone believes they are abusing freedoms by doing the things that irritate others. And they're free to think that way -- without anyone else's approval. Think about what would the alternative look like. Perhaps a police state? A theocracy, maybe?
Utopia.
Who said there are no freedoms?
"...I'll take abused freedoms over no freedoms any day." Ray
There are plenty of freedoms that are wonderful in this country and if we didn't have them, we would be very backwards.
But freedom and license are two different things. And people are free to think whatever they want.
NO one can take away your thoughts, Ray. I feel sad that it crossed your mind. Even tortured prisoners have that much. No one is trying to take away your freedom to think.
Abused license doesn't just "irritate" others, Ray. Abused license threatens balance. Threatens society.
Common courtesy, politeness, (lets say on the roadways) seems annihilated around here. That's an example of license versus freedom. People have the freedoms of owning a car and driving from place to place, but they take license to drive erratically, oblivious to everyone and thing except themselves. Just last night friends of our came home aafter witnessing people dragracing on the PARKWAY, oblivious of anyone else. The one car ultimately crashed. That wasn't a mere irritation. That was downright lawlessness...and it seems to be the way of things.
Margaret wrote:
"Utopia."
That's just your belief system talking. ;->
Margaret wrote:
"NO one can take away your thoughts, Ray. I feel sad that it crossed your mind. Even tortured prisoners have that much. No one is trying to take away your freedom to think."
Did you read this before you posted it?
"Common courtesy, politeness, (lets say on the roadways) seems annihilated around here. That's an example of license versus freedom. People have the freedoms of owning a car and driving from place to place, but they take license to drive erratically, oblivious to everyone and thing except themselves."
I'm not talking about license. License is a lack of consideration of other people's rights. Other people's freedoms need to be considered as important as one's own -- as are common courtesy or politeness. Personal rights must be weighed and other people's rights have to be taken seriously. I don't consider anything like violating someone else's rights to be a right. That being said, no one's rights are subject to anyone else's approval if they don't affect anyone else.
I think other's people's rights are taken quite seriously.
And YOU wrote about the "freedom to think", and I responded. Perhaps YOU don't read your own posts before writing them.
License: excess of liberty; disregard of propriety.
M
Yup, it's license.
M
"Other people's freedoms need to be considered as important as one's own -- as are common courtesy or politeness." -- Ray
Yeah, you're a regular Miss Manners there, Ray. We all know that.
"Personal rights must be weighed and other people's rights have to be taken seriously. I don't consider anything like violating someone else's rights to be a right." -- Ray
I see. I'm no OBGYN, mind you, but I'd be willing to guess that your average 34 week-old fetus weighs a good 4 to 5 pounds easy, if not more. Moreover, I'd be further willing to guess that that fetus is, biologically speaking, not all that much different from a neonate sleeping soundly in the maternity ward of your local hospital a few hours after her mother gave birth to her.
That being the case, and given what you've written above, can those of us in the pro-life movement put you, Ray, down as a solid supporter of The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act?
Spooky wrote:
"Yeah, you're a regular Miss Manners there, Ray. We all know that."
Are you telling me that you actually sought a Miss Manners link to cite here? Holy Smokes, Spooky. Talk about an exercise in irrelevance! I think the mother ship is calling. Better beam up before it's to late.
"That being the case, and given what you've written above, can those of us in the pro-life movement put you, Ray, down as a solid supporter of The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act?"
First, there's no such thing as a partial-birth abortion. Second, no you can't. Third, your Bible says it's okay to slay women and their fetuses. Forth, why the hell am I wasting my time talking to a looney?
That's what I always liked about you, Ray: You're full of bologna and a hypocrite on top of it, but you have no shame about it.
There is such thing as partial birth abortion. Oh, you don't like the name? I think it's called intact dilation and extraction -the scientific term, I believe. If you google, both names will come up. It is essentially the partial birthing of a child, and then the extraction of its brains, before the complete birthing of the now dead infant.
Just thought you'd like to know.
It really does exist, Ray.
Margaret
wish pat's mama had performed it on him..
My my, you outdid yourself with that comment, Ray.
To wish that on anyone, well, I guess that falls under the category of "free speech" or is it licentiousness?
The latter.
Margaret
Margaret wrote:
"My my, you outdid yourself with that comment, Ray."
No, that wasn't me. Once again someone is posting with my name. You should know by now that I don't make comments like that.
Spooky wrote:
"That's what I always liked about you, Ray: You're full of bologna and a hypocrite on top of it, but you have no shame about it."
And you're full of baloney (note the correct spelling of the word) and a hypocrite on top of it but you feel the shame and continue anyway.
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